Pharyngula

Wednesday, October 12, 2005

Religion, real and unreal

Ophelia Benson has been discussing a wonderful paper, Religion and Respect (pdf) by Simon Blackburn. I don't have much to add, but I found the same parts of the paper extremely appealing—this is exactly how I feel about it all.

'Respect', of course is a tricky term. I may respect your gardening by just letting you get on with it. Or, I may respect it by admiring it and regarding it as a superior way to garden. The word seems to span a spectrum from simply not interfering, passing by on the other side, through admiration, right up to reverence and deference. This makes it uniquely well-placed for ideological purposes. People may start out by insisting on respect in the minimal sense, and in a generally liberal world they may not find it too difficult to obtain it. But then what we might call respect creep sets in, where the request for minimal toleration turns into a demand for more substantial respect, such as fellow-feeling, or esteem, and finally deference and reverence. In the limit, unless you let me take over your mind and your life, you are not showing proper respect for my religious or ideological convictions.

We can respect, in the minimal sense of tolerating, those who hold false beliefs. We can pass by on the other side. We need not be concerned to change them, and in a liberal society we do not seek to suppress them or silence them. But once we are convinced that a belief is false, or even just that it is irrational, we cannot respect in any thicker sense those who hold it—not on account of their holding it. We may respect them for all sorts of other qualities, but not that one. We would prefer them to change their minds. Or, if it is to our advantage that they have false beliefs, as in a game of poker, andwe am poised to profit from them, we may be wickedly pleased that they are taken in. But that is not a symptom of special substantial respect, but quite the reverse. It is one up to us, and one down to them.

"Respect" is such an awkwardly fluid word, as he says. For his first use of the term, in the sense of "letting you get on with it", I prefer to use the word "tolerate"; I'd rather reserve respect for those things I find admirable. It at least puts up a flimsy semantic barrier to block that odious respect creep. So, I tolerate religion, and think it's fine if people adopt dotty beliefs and confine their practice to home and church; I do not respect religion, and find no virtue in it.

As the Blackburn paper illustrates in its opening anecdote, though, showing a lack of respect for religion in the sense above is one of those things that drives the acutely religious nuts. It is not enough to let them be, you must also acknowledge the vast and weighty import of their history, their rituals, their majestic all-powerful Tooth Fairy. And since their god is infinitely malleable, they can attach him to anything to add his incalculable mass to whatever end they want. Little kids get told to say their prayers before bedtime—a meaningless ritual backed by the Lord of the Entire Universe. People are killed en masse in wars because they address same Lord by a different name or title than other people.

But equally perhaps 'God exists' functions largely as a license to demand respect creep. It turns up an amplifier, and what it amplifies is often the meanest and most miserable side of human nature. I want your land, and it enables me to throw bigger and better tantrums, ones that you just have to listen to, if I find myself saying that God wants me to want your land. A tribe wants to enforce the chastity of its women, and the words of the supernatural work to terrify them into compliance. We don't like our neighbours, and it works if we say that they are infidels or heretics. This is religion used to ventilate and to amplify emotions of fear, self-righteousness, vengefulness, bitterness, hatred and self-hatred. If this is how the religious language functions, we on the sidelines should not want people to be using it, and we should not use it ourselves.

We just go along with it all, accepting religious mythology as an implicit part of our culture, and now we're at the point where Wolf Blitzer can ask in all seriousness "if the recent natural disasters…were indication of END OF DAYS" on a major news network, and damn few question the insanity of the question. We can have a president nominate someone to the Supreme Court, and the apologists point to the fervency of her belief in Jesus as one of her qualifications.

"She is a deeply committed Christian," Dobson said. "She has been a believer in Jesus Christ since the late 1970s. I know the person who led her to the Lord. I know the church that she goes to. I know it's a very conservative church. I know that she is a tithe-paying member at that church. I know that she has deep convictions about things. I have talked at length to people that know her—and have known her for a long time. Some of them have been a close personal friend of hers for 25 years. I trust these people because I know them—I know who they are and I know their character and I know what they stand their heart for the Lord."

Try substituting "Hindu" for "Christian" and "Ganesh" for "Jesus" and rereading that if your own religiosity prevents you from seeing how deeply weird that stuff sounds to some of us. Why is uncritical devotion to the unseen and unevidenced considered a benefit for a secular position that requires scholarly analysis of evidence and history? (OK, I know the newest qualifications are for a fanatical adherence to an ideology in spite of the evidence, and in that case religiosity may indicate a predisposition to that…but I'm an idealist and would like to imagine that many people oppose such corruption of the court.)

Speaking of idealists, Jeanne has a good criticism of Hitchens (I am not a fan of Hitchens, but I am a fan of Jeanne—I guess I'm not as fanatical an adherent of atheism as I could be) that brings up a different Christian ideal.

But out here in the real world, most Christians practice their faith quietly, awkwardly, without display, never quite positive what they should do let alone what anyone else should do, without forcing their beliefs on anyone else, often without even mentioning their beliefs to anyone else, and can make no sense whatsoever of Hitchens' sense that somehow that is an unserious way to live a life of faith.

That's very nice. I'm not sure how true it is, though—after all, by definition the humble, modest Christians would not be flaunting their humility and modesty at me, so I wouldn't see it—but what I do see of the ordinary Christians in my little town are ostentatious billboards and letters to the paper condemning others for their sexual orientation and attempts to twist school curricula to fit their religious beliefs (in subtle ways so far—no overt anti-evolutionism, yet). On a larger scale, religious beliefs are an implicit prerequisite for political office everywhere. The Republicans in particular jump at every whisper from such exemplary Christians as James Dobson, and wear their flamboyant Christianity on their sleeves, while on the Democratic side, if Barack Obama were atheist, everyone would be dismissing his obvious talents and sending him back to do committee work in Chicago.

I'm sure the uncertain and sincere Christians exist, and in principle I can appreciate their virtues, but the operational reality of what we see from Christianity in America is arrogance, exclusion, intolerance, and lunacy. What may well start out as an honest humility like Jeanne describes is subject to Blackburn's "respect creep" and the God-amplifier effect, and what we actually get is monstrous and unchristian, using Christianity's own ideals of their faith.

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43573: — 10/12  at  08:17 AM {/if}
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Try substituting "Hindu" for "Christian" and "Ganesh" for "Jesus" and rereading that if your own religiosity prevents you from seeing how deeply weird that stuff sounds to some of us.

I'm sure if this were true, you wouldn't have linked to it.
Nary a word. Now be honest, your screeds are strictly anti-Christian. You aren't an equal opportunity atheist. I don't recall reading anything ant-Islamic on these pages. I may be wrong {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43574: wolfangel — 10/12  at  08:31 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} This works remarkably well to describe patriotism, too. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if TRUE} 's avatar {/if} #43575: PZ Myers — 10/12  at  08:34 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Christianity is the religion that is in my face all the time here in America. I think Islam is a nasty brand of mythology, too...but the only reason people ever bring it up is to make excuses for Christianity. "My religion isn't as crazy as that other religion"…sorry, guy, but yes it is. {/if}

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PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43576: — 10/12  at  08:36 AM {/if}
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For his first use of the term, in the sense of "letting you get on with it", I prefer to use the word "tolerate"

abide

The dude abides. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43577: — 10/12  at  08:39 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} As people have discussed in the comments before, it's interesting that the US, which has no state religion, is much more aggressively religious than European countries, which often have state religions. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43579: — 10/12  at  08:42 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Let's lay the cards on the table, Nature: next only to Islam, Christianity is in fact one of the most aggressive and altogether noxious of religions. But the idea that it is necessary to make a rhetorical genuflection to the badness of Islam every single time that one mentions the badness of Christianity can only be described as cretinous. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43580: — 10/12  at  08:47 AM {/if}
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We can respect, in the minimal sense of tolerating, those who hold false beliefs. We can pass by on the other side. We need not be concerned to change them, and in a liberal society we do not seek to suppress them or silence them. But once we are convinced that a belief is false, or even just that it is irrational, we cannot respect in any thicker sense those who hold it—not on account of their holding it.

I'd have to disagree. Of course, if one holds rationality to an exceptional standard of admiration, I guess there's some disappointment but, based on observation, "we" makes that a generally hypocritical standard.
The soldier's wife that irrationally hopes a mistake was made and he's coming home can indeed be respected for that belief. I'm not saying mustbe respected but can be for reasons that are manifold but include rationality.

There's an additional category (or maybe it's the same). There are those who hold to irrational beliefs that help them get through the day. That you or I might be able to find an alternative, perhaps even a rational alternative, is rather arrogantly besides the point. This isn't an endorcement of irrationality itself but it is a rejection of a condemntation of any irrationality and that's what's really being discussed with this backhanded slap guised as diminished respect.

Take whatever slaps are appropriate for whatever rational or irrational beliefs have negative consequences but this attempt to lump it all irrational beliefs together is a sloppy sophism {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43581: — 10/12  at  09:01 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} No, Wade, Blackburn is both clear and correct on this point. Nowhere does hs call for any sort of "condemnation"- that would be prtty close to the opposite of what he does call for, respect-in-the-sense-of toleration. Nowhere does he indicate that he would be inclined to reproach those whose irrational beliefs help them to get through the day. Neither would I. But you seem to be edging awfully close to the claim that I should somehow be admiring them for needing those beliefs to get through the day. Why? And if you claim you're not saying that, then exactly what do you want over and above passing by in silence? {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43582: — 10/12  at  09:05 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I heard an interesting little piece on our local wacky morning show here in Los Angeles about a woman who's started a ministry for strippers and other sex workers called "JC's Girls." And, like many people who despise zealous evangelists, I was cringing a little before she got on the line with the deejays.

What I found fascinating is that she said her work is very difficult because it's hard for her to find a church where the girls who contact her will be accepted and not judged. There are a lot of "Christians" out there who are obsessed with figuring out where they stand on the sinfulness scale and judging those they feel are "beneath" them. So even though these strippers would like to go to church and maybe change their lives, it's very difficult because most churches throw them out the instant they find out what the girls do for a living.

Which, I shouldn't have to say, is completely antithetical to everything Jesus said in the Bible.

And then "Christians" wonder why their blatant hypocrisy makes the rest of us hold them in such low esteem ... {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43583: — 10/12  at  09:06 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I think your views on respecting vs. tolerating religion are a little rigid and ignore human psychology. For the most part, I respect rather than tolerate others' religions at least insofar as it serves as a proxy for other virtues that allow them to function as a community. While you can have all this within a naturalistic worldview, that has historically been the exception rather than the rule, and it's more important to me that people treat each other decently than to go around policing their reasons for doing so. By contrast, I don't believe in having respect or tolerance for harmful religious beliefs (e.g. racial theories or apocalyptic views) so I do see the main issue as respect.

To remove this from the context of Christianity in the US, suppose I'm visiting an ancient Buddhist temple. People come periodically to burn incense, say, or release turtles in a special pond. I'm quiet to avoid disturbing them, avoid flash photography, etc. Is this "respect" or "tolerance"? I feel respect and reverence, standing in awe of thousands of years of the sacred history of a people. The same would be true of a cathedral in Europe. I don't agree that their beliefs are literally true (they couldn't be with all the contradictions) but I accept it as the language in which people talk about their values.

As for evangelical billboards, to begin with I think it's a mistake to assume that they represent the majority of American Christians (but maybe I would have to move to a red state to be certain). There are a lot of Christians of one form or another, and most don't go around proselytizing. I respect these people and their beliefs. I don't "respect" the billboards, because I consider them to be in-your-face near intolerance in their own right. I do tolerate them because we have a first amendment, but that's where it stops in the case. However, it's a mistake to conflate the billboards with the practices of Americans, most of whom are just people, right about some things, wrong about others, and mostly using religion as a language for values, just as humans have done through most of history. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43584: — 10/12  at  09:14 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} What do I over and above silence?

I'm not saying I want anything. I'm rejecting the contention that
we cannot respect in any thicker sense those who hold it—not on account of their holding it.

I'm rejecting the absolute, categorical nature of that statement.
Strictly on rational ground, I can respect the holding of irrational beliefs that help one get through the day. The defense is not against irrationality in toto. Believing that your next lottery ticket will get you out of debt won't inpire respect. Believing that someday things will be better can, even when it's a far less than rational belief. Or maybe I'm just obsessing over how I respect people who believe that very thing when I don't. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43585: — 10/12  at  09:15 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} PZ: "while on the Democratic side, if Barack Obama were atheist, everyone would be dismissing his obvious talents and sending him back to do committee work in Chicago"

This may be something of an overstatement, since Durbin gets elected here without any frequent call to religious values, but I'll happily grant you that Obama's moralistic appeal combined with his amazing public speaking skills put him over the top.

Speaking as a strongly agnostic person from a Jewish upbringing, Obama shows exactly how and why someone with a secular mindset can respect someone from a religious one, and it is not directly due to the faith or belief in and of itself. Instead, I deeply respect Obama's commitment to morals, just as I did with a rather conservative and religious guy with whom I had a fascinating conversation on a plane ride this past week. In both cases, I could care less whether they believe in God, and which version of such, even though they both think it central. Instead, I am happy to judge them, and hope to be judged by them for that matter, on the basis of moral choices. As one of the recent threads went into, morality transcends religion, even though the two are so closely linked in the public imagination. If Obama, or a conservative, or anyone makes a moral choice I agree with, I will respect him regardless of the reasons for that choice. If someone has a strongly held belief that I firmly disagree with, I see no need to respect it for its strength (though in some cases a grudging respect for consistency in an often hypocritical world isn't uncalled for). In short, you can respect a person for what he/she does, rather than for what he/she believes, and it can lead to some common good instead of arguments at times. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43586: — 10/12  at  09:18 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Wade, you're contradicting yourself. You claim not to want anything over and above the "thin" respect of passing over in silence, yet you continue to complain because Blackburn wants to grant precisely this but not "thicker" forms of respect. It's really not clear at all what you're asking for that Blackburn fails to grant. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43587: — 10/12  at  09:25 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I'll stand up and take a good punch to the face... smile

I'm one of those "humble, modest Christians." (At least I pray I am every time I pray.) It's hard for us. I was once having a conversation with a friend who is gay, who was telling me about how difficult that label can be in our society. I joked to him: try being moderately liberal, fascinated by evolutionary theory, Christian, growing up in west Texas... Everybody hates you. I've definitely had the feeling of being caught between two sides -- science and religion.

One of the most exciting things I've seen happen in this whole Dover trial was the testimony of Ken Miller. Now there's a guy I respect. He's a Christian. Seems like a good scientist to me.

My Christianity gives me my morals, my purpose, and my philosophy. Part of that philosophy is the belief that "God did it." (Perhaps 99% of you don't like that statement?) But that philosophy certainly doesn't tell me HOW God did it. That's what has me so enraged over all these so-called Christians that think they can speak for all of us. I swear, if I read one more Christian lawyer tell me about evolutionary biology, I just might have an aneurism. That's what keeps me lurking at blogs like this, and Panda's thumb. There's so much great information. But it is disappointing to see the hostility, though I understand that hostility is directed at people who, well, I feel a little hostility towards myself.

I'm about to start grad school, pursuing a master's in biology. My thesis will probably involve ecology of birds. After that I hope to go for a doctorate. So, I'm about to "take the plunge." More than anything, I hope I can be a "go between" for biology and Christianity. I've observed over the years that many, many Christians simply need someone they trust to patiently explain how evolution works. They're shocked because they had no idea of the evidence for the theory, and they're generally interested in learning about it. Some of course seem to be lost causes. But then again, my philosophy tells me that God's still working on all of us.

On the science side, it's a little scary to see some of the reactions that people have. I'm used to being the "liberal guy with crazy post-modern ideas" when compared to my west Texas church culture. In fact, I enjoy that label. I'm sure it'll be a little shocking to get to grad school and be "the crazy, right-wing Christian nut job."

But in the end, all you can do is find your own beliefs, and stick to them. My hope for all of us is that we can enjoy those things we agree about. I've certainly enjoyed learning more about science here. Perhaps you guys can accept and even respect those religious folks who don't try to ram it down your throats? {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43588: covington — 10/12  at  09:28 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} There's another type of "respect" that the religious do deserve. The respect that an animal handler shows towards dangerous beasts. Be extra careful when you get in a cage with people who believe it's the end of the world. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43589: Kristine Harley — 10/12  at  09:38 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} "There are a lot of 'Christians' out there who are obsessed with figuring out where they stand on the sinfulness scale and judging those...strippers [who] would like to go to church and maybe change their lives, it's very difficult because most churches throw them out the instant they find out what the girls do for a living."

Yeah, geez, what an opportunity. Maybe atheists should step in where Christians fear to tread? Let the strippers and other "marginal" types come unto us? Maybe we should stress the life-changing virtues and the pleasures of clear thought, critical analysis, and the striving for knowledge?

After all, I grew up in a deeply-religious atmosphere, and while I respect (tolerate) my family's views, I see how their beliefs inhibit them and make them content to watch other people do interesting things. Atheism allows me to be an active participant in a changing cosmos. One doesn't often hear someone being interviewed on television about how atheism changed his or her life. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43591: — 10/12  at  09:43 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Steve, no, I'm not contradicting myself. I did not say I only want this thin level of respect. I didn't say I wanted any respect. I say it's incorrect to say we can't respect (and I'll add even profoundly respect and admire) a belief purely because it's irrational. Next time, read what I actually write, not what you think I'm writing. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43592: — 10/12  at  09:52 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Still being incoherent, Wade; you're having an emotional reaction that is not lending iteslf to clear thought. You can admire whatever you like, but Blackburn, PZ and I are under no compulsion to join you. My position in a nutshell is that while I can greatly respect, say, Barack Obama, he certainly does not get extra points from me for his religious beliefs. How you allocate your "respect points" is of course your business. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43593: — 10/12  at  09:59 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I'm sure the uncertain and sincere Christians exist, and in principle I can appreciate their virtues, but the operational reality of what we see from Christianity in America is arrogance, exclusion, intolerance, and lunacy.

What we see when we only bother to skim the congealed skin off the turkey broth of Christianity. Popular punditry in our media selects for loudmouth jerks: Pat Robertson and his ilk. So we are getting a non-representative sample if we just listen to the loony proclamations of that sort.

I haven't done the study, but my guess would be that a good sized slice of the Christian-in-America pie would be the sort of non-fervent and just-go-to-church-by-default sort of folk who kind of go through the motions and basically believe it but don't really examine it or fuss about their religion much. Sure, there are zealots, many, in the U.S., but many of the standard issue Christians think they are sort of goofy. That's why terms like "bible thumpers" and such are around. I really suspect Christian belief fervency and belief control (how thought-through or pondered one's beliefs are) follow the typical distribution, with most within one standard deviation from middle of the road
non-fervent basically rational believers. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43594: — 10/12  at  10:03 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Speaking as a life-long atheist, I love the cries that Christians deserve more respect. After years of being looked at in horror and then denounced as "foolish" or "lost" because I refuse to look at myself as a meat puppet, I wonder who should really be demanding more respect in our society.

Christians have gotten all the respect for nearly two millenia. The only people who ever substantially disrepect Christians in Western society are other Christians, the different sects of which cannot seem to decide just how "great" God is.

The best I can offer Christians is common decency, which is a lot more than most of the Christians I have met have afforded me. Respect, however, went out the window a long time ago. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43595: pdf23ds — 10/12  at  10:07 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Steve, it seems to me that the only thing Wade is claiming is that one is not wrong to respect--in any sense--irrational beliefs in someone. So when Blackburn says we "cannot respect", he's technically wrong. Now, we can disagree as to whether irrational beliefs can ever be wonthy of respect, and under what circumstances, but simply stating that they are is not incoherent, and I think that's all wade is doing. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43596: — 10/12  at  10:15 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} JP- nice post, you seem like a nice fellow. A few comments.
'As for evangelical billboards, to begin with I think it's a mistake to assume that they represent the majority of American Christians (but maybe I would have to move to a red state to be certain). '

To me this is a version of the 'One true scotsmans' fallacy. It applies to every other Christian but not me. This has proven itself over and over again. I'm a Christian but not a 'nutball' Christian. I think we all think this way, if your Christian that is. As I grow I begin to understand the 'tribal' lanquage.


'My Christianity gives me my morals, my purpose, and my philosophy'

No your parents gave you your morals, I fail to see how you get purpose from religion but ok, and if your philosophy is based on a religion that can't be proven it's on shaky ground.

'But that philosophy certainly doesn't tell me HOW God did it'

Or anything else either. At least not anymore than believing in the Flying pasta monster would.

'More than anything, I hope I can be a "go between" for biology and Christianity. I've observed over the years that many, many Christians simply need someone they trust to patiently explain how evolution works.'

Thats good. I think that is to be applauded. But it's a game you won't win. There is no go between because really, if people were honest, they are incompatible. Hence the problem. You can't apply science to religion without making any case for religion fall apart.

'Perhaps you guys can accept and even respect those religious folks who don't try to ram it down your throats?'

Respecting people isn't the problem, it's the bizarre beliefs people ask other people to respect. A big difference. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43597: — 10/12  at  10:15 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Blackburn nowhere proposes forcing people like Wade to be part of that "we". If people want to accord "thick" respect to obviously false beliefs, that will certainly make it more difficult for me to respct them, but on the other hand they're certainly under no obligation to care about what I think. The really curious thing, which is one of the things Blackburn is trying to analyze, is that there are so many Wades (not to speak of all those much more deeply committed to irrational beliefs who behave in excactly this way as well) who for some reason do care. It's as though they have some need for validation from those outside the circle of people who already think as they do. I really don't understand that craving, and I certainly don't respect it. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43598: pdf23ds — 10/12  at  10:17 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} yorktank,

The persecution complex of many Christians--those who think that Christianity is under continually attack from all sorts of various infidels, that it doesn't get respect from mainstream society, that most people outside their sect are immoral and evil sinners--is truly one of the defining features of fundamentalism. That they cry out for lack of respect is only one of many symptoms of this.

PaulC said:
"For the most part, I respect rather than tolerate others' religions at least insofar as it serves as a proxy for other virtues that allow them to function as a community. While you can have all this within a naturalistic worldview, that has historically been the exception rather than the rule..."

I'd like to take exception to this. Historically atheism itself has been the exception, but that's only because religious myths are very likely to crop up a lot. I'd say that in groups or communities who eschew dogmatism of any kind, the morality on the whole is likely to be much greater. God-beliefs in themselves probably don't have much causally to do with the morality of groups. In fact, there was a crooked timber thread on this a few days ago. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43599: — 10/12  at  10:17 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Steve, I don't respect your irrational inability to read the words I actually wrote. You don't seem to comprehend things like "I'm rejecting the absolute, categorical nature of that statement." You are inventing things not written to presume I'm saying youmust respect anything or anyone. I never told you or anyone else who or what they must respect. I did reject the notion that "we" cannot respect certain beliefs for the sole reason that they are irrational. But my perisistence in repeating something to someone who has a mental block is not rational and I don't respect myself for bothering to repeat something when all indications are that they are incapable of understanding it. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43600: pdf23ds — 10/12  at  10:21 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} "Blackburn nowhere proposes forcing people like Wade to be part of that "we"."

I agree with your interpretation, but when Blackburn says "cannot", I think wade interprets it as a prohibition, as if Blackburn is saying it would be morally wrong to do so. This is not a terribly unreasonable interpretation of what Blackburn wrote, even though it is wrong. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43601: — 10/12  at  10:23 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I understand perfectly your distaste for the "absolute, categorical nature of that statement". I simply don't agree with it. You're free to disagree with me. But why does it bother you so much that I, or Blackburn, do feel compelled to make that categorical rejection? We're not proposing to compel you to agree with us. You're scratching a psychological itch which is strictly your problem, not mine. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43602: — 10/12  at  10:29 AM {/if}
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Kristjan Wager — 10/12 at 08:39 AM
As people have discussed in the comments before, it's interesting that the US, which has no state religion, is much more aggressively religious than European countries, which often have state religions.


Demographer Michael Adams, author of "Fire and Ice: the United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values," has theorized that the United States is so religious because it never had a state religion. In most of Europe and here in Canada, historically the state did elevate one or more Christian denominations above its rivals. Thus the church became associated with the corruption and oppression of the state (because most of these states have a history of domineering elites). Thus, in most of these states today, no one likes religious interference in government.

In the US, religion was kept out of government from the beginning. Thus, no religion had the apparatus of the state to encourage conversion. They had to use popular appeal to attract adherents. Thus, the explosion of dozens of Christian denominations in 19th-century America. It's all about the marketing. Today, Christian missionaries dress up the Bible as a teen magazine to hook 'em young:

Beginning with the early 19th century, our brand of Christianity has always been marked by a desire to serve both God and mammon, says Steven Prothero, an associate professor of religion at Boston University and the author of the upcoming book "American Jesus." "Nobody else is as successful as American Christians are in making Christians," he says. "And nobody else stoops to such lows in doing so."
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2003/10/09/revolve/


For the Dobson-types, the medium is the message. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43603: — 10/12  at  10:30 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} As for evangelical billboards, to begin with I think it's a mistake to assume that they represent the majority of American Christians

I think the true mistake is assuming that there really is some sort of "silent majority" of Christians who are dismayed at the hijacking of their faith by these judgmental ostentatious yahoos.

There may very well be, but I'm forced to wonder why, if their faith means so much to them, they don't stand up and take it back for themselves. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43604: — 10/12  at  10:33 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I actually think Blackburn is going a bit farther than that, and I know I would go a bit farther: it seems to me inescapable that according "thick respect" to beliefs whose truth or at least rationality one is not prepared to defend, is sloppy thinking at the least. But since neither Blackburn nor I propose to punish sloppy thinking (who should 'scape whipping?), Wade simply doesn't have a valid complaint. He is free to go on thinking in what I consider to be a sloppy way, and equally free to think that I'm a complete ass for so considering it. But he isn't free to demand that I grant validity to his position when I don't think it's valid. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43605: beajerry — 10/12  at  10:40 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} That's an interesting article and I like your comments.
It comes down to keeping your religion to yourself and the question "for what possible purpose could it serve to EVER speak about your religion to someone else outside of people who believe the same?"
The answer to that quickly reveals non-spiritual intentions. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43606: — 10/12  at  10:48 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} The problem with the particular extract I'm picking on, that of loss of respect for any irrationality, is that it's part of a sophism. Examples of irrational beliefs that have detrimental consequences are used to bolster this categorical rejection of anything irrational. And rather than gaming with a slipperly slope of scaled levels of respect, I take it head on with the observation that there are plenty of reasons, many of them rational, for fully respecting or even admiring some irrational beliefs. For the weak minded, this isn't a demand that any particular person must feel this respect, it is simply a rejection of the assertion that one cannot rationally show respect for irrational beliefs. While the article makes numerous valid points, on that one account I'm addressing it is tossing out a bushel of apples for a few bad ones, or perhaps refusing to allow that there are some good apples mixed in with the bad.
The reason for taking on such an argument is that, as an argument presumably defending rationality, it needs to be able to stand up to rational analysis or else it falls from a weight of hypocracy. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43607: — 10/12  at  10:50 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Steve - marvelous posts. Great pun.
cre•tin n. A person afflicted with cretinism. 2. Slang. An idiot.
[French crétin, from French dialectal, deformed and mentally retarded person found in certain Alpine valleys, from Vulgar Latin *christianus, Christian, human being, poor fellow, from Latin Christianus, Christian. See Christian.] {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43608: — 10/12  at  10:51 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Well, you might start by actually defending your position, which would involve specific examples of when, how and why you feel obliged to give more than mere tolerance to beliefs which you acknowledge to be rationally unfounded. How about doing that rather than making the unsupported claim over and over? {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43609: Arun — 10/12  at  10:57 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I'm sorry, but this stuff on religion is extremely naive.

Try substituting "Hindu" for "Christian" and "Ganesh" for "Jesus" and rereading that if your own religiosity prevents you from seeing how deeply weird that stuff sounds to some of us.


It would sound weird to a Hindu, too.

What is a "deeply committed Hindu"?
What does it mean to "be a believer in Ganesh"?
What does it mean to be "led to the Lord Ganesh"?
What are tithes in Hinduism?
What does it mean "to stand in one's heart for Lord Ganesh"?

These are utterly meaningless in a context of Hinduism; they acquire some sense if one imagines Hinduism is like Christianity, and does a superficial mapping from Christianity to Hinduism. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43610: — 10/12  at  10:59 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} wade has said:
"Next time, read what I actually write, not what you think I'm writing."
"Steve, I don't respect your irrational inability to read the words I actually wrote. You don't seem to comprehend"
"You are inventing things not written to presume I'm saying"
"I never told you or anyone else"
"I don't respect myself for bothering to repeat something when all indications are that they are incapable of understanding it."

Well, I don't respect you for it either, but I don't think that's what you're really doing. I'm sure Steve is perfectly capable of understanding what you're saying. Your inflammatory accusations only get in the way of what is probably too subtle a disagreement to be resolved on a comments thread, though. The only question is whether two parties have the energy, interest, and mutual respect necessary to invest in coming to a mutual understanding of their differences and perhaps resolving them. Your saying these things accomplishes nothing except perhaps making you feel better about the fact that someone disagrees with you.

When someone misunderstands me, I either write them off as not worth talking with--and then don't talk to them--or I assume that I'm the one who needs to state myself more clearly.

Sorry to get meta, but these comments really irritated me.

beajerry said:
"for what possible purpose could it serve to EVER speak about your religion to someone else outside of people who believe the same?"

I agree that the motivations necessary to sustain a prosyletic attitude probably cannot be completely pure in a spiritual sense, but Christians do have a pretty good spiritual justification, as those go. Their proselytizing is supposedly motivated by an altruistic concern for the spiritual well-being and especially the spiritual fate--will they go to heaven or hell?--of their fellow man. Evangelists have a mission to "save souls", as they say. We can examine what lies behind this, but that gets tricky pretty quickly. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43611: — 10/12  at  11:01 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Vatican astronomer asks: could you baptise ET?

LONDON - 11 October 2005

A pocket-sized book published by CTS this week addresses Catholic attitudes to extra-terrestrial life.

With increasing numbers of people believing not only in the possibility of intelligent life on other planets, but even claiming encounters with aliens, it is not surprising that the Catholic Church is beginning to explore what effect the discovery of sentient ETs might have on Christian theology.
...
{/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43612: — 10/12  at  11:03 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} God-beliefs may not be the root cause of a moral code, but they are an excellent tool for popularizing and spreading a particular moral code throughout a population. As such, their power as a sociological tool both currently and throughout history should not be underestimated.

Uber, you are way off base in your post. Read studies on the religous sociology of Americans, and you will see that the billboard-posters are in the minority of professed Christians. They are a growing and vocal minority, but still a minority. It is not uncommon for people to derive their morals and purpose from a religious philosophy (or a nonreligious philosophy) in defiance of their parents, especially in settings where the peer group is strongly tilted towards one religion but the parents are not members. You can look at the secularization of American Orthodox Jews (or many other ultra-orthodox sects in a largely secular society). Basing ones philosophy on a religious code is not inherently more or less "shaky" than one on a strictly naturalistic code (if philosophies can even be measured as such). And finally, your assertion that science invalidates all religious belief is silly. Science has not now nor has it ever disproved the existence of a god or gods (which is why I am a firm agnostic). So long as a person's individual religion does not make false predictions about the material world, it can exist quite peacefully with science. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43613: — 10/12  at  11:11 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} PZ: "while on the Democratic side, if Barack Obama were atheist, everyone would be dismissing his obvious talents and sending him back to do committee work in Chicago"

This may be something of an overstatement, since Durbin gets elected here without any frequent call to religious values


Well, I don't think PZ's comment is an overstatement. I've seen polls before which showed that people would be more willing to elect a gay president than an atheist one -- which is saying something considering how little respect gays get. And "without any frequent call to religious values" is very different than saying you don't believe in the existence of God.

"If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be a 'X' would you vote for that person?" (Poll done in 1999.)
Atheist 49%
Baptist 94%
Black 95%
Catholic 94%
Homosexual 59%
Jewish 92%
Mormon 99%
Woman 92%

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amer_intol.htm

With 51% of people saying that they wouldn't vote for a candidate based purely on the fact that (s)he was atheist, they might as well not even run.

The fact of the matter is that atheists are most definately a pariah in American society. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43614: — 10/12  at  11:19 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} pdf23ds,
As you seem to have read this tit::tat you ought to recognize that Steve has somehow conspired to read that I was telling him that he must do something. You won't however be able to dig out any quotes where I did that though you do seem to have noticed where I've complained about his asserting for me positions I did not claim. I am taken aback that you call me inflamatory for my defense against things I did not write while apparently giving Steve a pass. I've had some prior experience with Steve and have found him to be a bit of a bulldog, at least that was so years ago. It seem not to have changed. He also still isn't doing well on the reading score after having planted his feet. I offered him a specific and a general case of irrational beliefs I think can be reasonably and rationally respected. He seems to have blocked it out as well as inventing things I did not say.

This whole rationality bit can be tuff at time. Construct a nice chain of logic and along comes someone to take out a single link and you have to start all over. I think that's what I did with full knowledge that substitute links can be had. The price of claiming rationality is that you have to actually get it right. Alternatively, you can obfuscate, invent, and even do a little amature psychoanalysis, cause we know how rational that is. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43615: charlie wagner — 10/12  at  11:20 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Ophelia Benson wrote:

"The word seems to span a spectrum from simply not interfering, passing by on the other side, through admiration, right up to reverence and deference."

Not at all. There is a difference between respecting a pereson's right to think, say or do something and respect for the act itself. Not interfering is respect for the right, not respect for the act, which includes admiration and esteen.
For example, I respect a woman's right to decide for herself whether or not to have an abortion, but I would not respect her decision to actually have one.
Similarly, I respect a person's right to hold any religious beliefs they choose, but I do not respect their attempts to impose those beliefs on others. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43616: Kristine Harley — 10/12  at  11:22 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} "Christians do have a pretty good spiritual justification, as those go. Their proselytizing is supposedly motivated by an altruistic concern for the spiritual well-being and especially the spiritual fate--will they go to heaven or hell?--of their fellow man. Evangelists have a mission to 'save souls,' as they say. We can examine what lies behind this, but that gets tricky pretty quickly."

I don't think it's tricky at all. What it comes down to is simply a dissatisfaction with self. People want to follow a strong leader not so much for where he takes them (toward Jesus or whomever) as much as for where he's taking them from (themselves, their problems, a world they have written off as evil). As the writer Eric Hoffer said in his book, The True Believer:

"The missionary zeal seems rather an expression of some deep misgiving, some pressing feeling of insufficiency at the center. Proselytizing is more a passionate search for something not yet found than a desire to bestow upon the world something we already have. It is a search for a final and irrefutable demonstration that our absolute truth is indeed the one and only truth. The proselytizing fanatic strengthens his own faith by converting others. The creed whose legitimacy is most easily challenged is likely to develop the strongest proselytizing impulse." {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43617: pdf23ds — 10/12  at  11:25 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} wade said:
"Examples of irrational beliefs that have detrimental consequences are used to bolster this categorical rejection of anything irrational. And rather than gaming with a slipperly slope of scaled levels of respect, I take it head on with the observation that there are plenty of reasons, many of them rational, for fully respecting or even admiring some irrational beliefs."

Rather than it being a slippery slope, I see it instead as being a simple grading scale. To the extent that someone hold irrational beliefs, and to the extent that those beliefs are a result of reflection, I afford them less and less respect.

I'd like to know what reasons one might have to respect an irrational belief. It might help if we define what "respect for a belief" is here. I don't think you can respect beliefs in themselves, but only people as a whole or their specific beliefs, actions, behaviors, or attitudes. So which is operative here?

Some caveats. I'm not denying that a person can be respected overall, despite aspects of them that lower one's respect for them. Saying that one respects the attitudes that some irrational beliefs enable (which I think you've mentioned) is not the same as respecting the belief itself. Also, not respecting an individual because of their irrational beliefs is not the same as blaming them for holding those beliefs.

With those caveats, I would assert that the belief itself, to the extent that it's irrational, does reflect poorly on a person. This is a value judgement, that I make because I value rationality. I think irrationality is harmful. If you don't share this value, then I respect you even less. I don't think you can make the case that I ought to respect, in the strong sense, that you respect irrational beliefs. (And I believe what you're claiming is that I should respect your respect for irrational beliefs, because your respect for them is justified if not necessary.) {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43619: — 10/12  at  11:39 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Shygetz said:
Science has not now nor has it ever disproved the existence of a god or gods (which is why I am a firm agnostic). So long as a person's individual religion does not make false predictions about the material world, it can exist quite peacefully with science.

And why exactly would "science" bother to disprove something that has never been proven. It's called faith for a reason. Also, it should be noted that all religions that invoke the supernatural as an explanation for existence make a false prediction about the material world. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43621: MJS — 10/12  at  11:48 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I do not respect religion, and find no virtue in it.

I respect the fact that the gun pointed at my head could kill me. To not respect that fact (or gun--even if I loathe its existence) could imperil my very life. I may internally disrespect the person who aims it at me, but still respect the gravity of the situation. Respect that gives me a slight statistical edge in terms of my own survival is a handy and pragmatic device.

I have an opposite reaction to Judeo-Christianity: as it "points itself" at my head, I lose that "fear" or "respect" and become increasingly intolerant. I can only laugh when missionaries come to my front door to show me "the way." They are selling Spiritual Herbal Life in the greatest Ponzi scheme ever invented and no amount of thoughtful discussion will get them to understand my ideas regarding The Cosmic Muffin.

When a four year-old tells me how a rabbit does laundry I listen as though it were a precious fact. I do'nt do the same for adult "true believers" because I have to draw the line somewhere: if you can't produce "it" please don't bend my ear with "it must be so"--if one truly believes in a God surely one must also guess that such a God does not require belief to drag his or her ass out of the heavenly bed each celestial day. Why such believers pester their creator on a daily basis is beyond me. They should give the whole concept every other sabbath day off--now there's a religious idea that shows a true respect for a deity!

btw: Rabbits wash only "small" clothing & dish rags & wash cloths, along with the occasional picnic blanket. They use the gentle wash cycle and very little soap, and like to take the laundry out of the dryer as soon as the load has stopped tumbling: when everything is soft and fuzzy just like them.

+++ {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43624: — 10/12  at  11:55 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} For a terminal cancer patient, the irrational belief that they may experience a miracle cure so it's worth struggling through another day, another week, is something I could not only respect but could admire. While it isn't necessary for all to see it that way, and it is possible to even see it as a bad dellusional thing, the admiration of it can, I think, be defended on purely rational ground.

For a cancer patient with a reasonable chance of remission after chemo, the irrational belief that they will be magically cured by the imaginary pink unicorn so there's no point in suffering through chemo isn't an irrational belief I could justify respecting and I'm having trouble imagining a basis where someone could.

For the first case, if it's that belief that helps someone keep going, it seems fair to call it respecting the belief as well as respecting the underlying courage. And I generally think this can be scaled back to far less dramatic examples than dying of cancer. That way you don't have to dis someone fighting for their life.
More generally, irrational optimism may be required for some to survive or thrive. Irrational pessimism might be the key to dilligence. You can paint in details to make such a beliefs to ultimately be good, bad or indifferent but the pure rationality or irrationality of it isn't the key. The key is how a particular belief inspires (or cautions) someone. This is part of an acknowledgement that rationality itself does not generally prove to be an effective means of behavior modification or modulation. And that is an observation, not prescrption.
And by the way, I'm not claiming anyone should "respect" my view on this. Disagree as you like but try to stick to what was actually written. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43626: — 10/12  at  11:57 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} "I'd like to know what reasons one might have to respect an irrational belief." I would too, which is why I keep waiting for Wade to stop blustering and start providing specific examples of what kinds of belief, what kinds of respect, and what kinds of reasons he's talking about. Maybe it'll be in his next reply... {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43628: pdf23ds — 10/12  at  12:01 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} "As you seem to have read this tit::tat you ought to recognize that Steve has somehow conspired to read that I was telling him that he must do something. You won't however be able to dig out any quotes where I did that though you do seem to have noticed where I've complained about his asserting for me positions I did not claim. I am taken aback that you call me inflamatory for my defense against things I did not write while apparently giving Steve a pass."

The difference between your intepretation of events and mine is in your use of "conspired". I would sooner say that
he was honestly misreading you. My standard of evidence for that sort of allegation seems to be unusually high. Also, I take a more pragmatic approach to comments than many people consciously do, chosing whether to respond based on the expected utility of the resulting conversation. (Consciously, because all people do this to some extent, but many stop applying this reasoning when the conversation gets heated.) But I admit that I have a hard time making my case. I'm a bit puzzled.

Kristine Harley said:
"I don't think it's tricky at all."

While your quote is very engaging and enlightening, I stand by my statement. Psychology is tricky business, and population psychology even more so. What you quote, I can easily imagine laying behind someone's religious zeal, and evangelizing impulse. I can even imagine recognizing some or all of those specific factors in one or many individuals somewhere. But there are other possible motivations, and which ones are prevalent to what extent in which subpopulations and what other characteristics are correlated with which mindsets are all worthy questions as well, and preclude treating any one hypothetical or observed set of motivations as a potentially complete explanation.

Shygetz said:
"Science has not now nor has it ever disproved the existence of a god or gods (which is why I am a firm agnostic). So long as a person's individual religion does not make false predictions about the material world, it can exist quite peacefully with science."

I think the most important thing is--and I can't prove this--that people raised with a scientific worldview find they have no need for God to explain anything. People raised using God as an explanation for this and that and all and sundry invoke the supernatural explanation for events daily. Science, as a worldview, makes it so one doesn't need God. And who would ever have believed in God if not for the fact that their parents used it as an explanation for questions? Are there any questions posed by the world itself, that, when examined, suggest God as an answer without reference to existing cultural dogma? I would say no, but it's a really hard statement to prove. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43629: Narc — 10/12  at  12:04 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I'm not sure how true it is, though—after all, by definition the humble, modest Christians would not be flaunting their humility and modesty at me, so I wouldn't see it—but what I do see of the ordinary Christians in my little town are ostentatious billboards and letters to the paper condemning others...

You sound surprised. The humble, modest Christians are basically invisible, even if they were 99% of the Christian population. Therefore, the only ones you see are the ostentatious ones. It just another form of selection; like how the harmful mutations become invisible (because they die off), so the only mutations we see are the beneficial ones. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43630: — 10/12  at  12:07 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} OK, our posts crossed. Finally there is a specific example to analyze, so let's get started. You surely can't mean that all beliefs that "keep someone going" are worthy of more-than-tolerance respect. For example, I trust you would agree that keep-me-going beliefs that are harmful to others- for example, religious beliefs of an intolerant stripe- can't deserve such an exemption. But furthermore, let's take one patient who keeps fighting out of irrational optimism, and a second who keeps fighting without any such crutch, simply because he desires to live his life to the fullest extent as long as possible. While not exactly disrespecting the optimistic patient- that would be pointlessly cruel- I certainly have more respect for the realistic patient. The irrationalism of the first, however instrumentally useful to himself (which is why I would never dream of condemning it, still less of trying to talk him out of it), cannot, qua irrationality, induce me to accord extra "respect points". If you disagree- and from what you've said so far, it's not clear to me whether you would or not- your argument is still incomplete. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43633: pdf23ds — 10/12  at  12:25 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} wade has said:
"there are plenty of reasons, many of them rational, for fully respecting or even admiring some irrational beliefs."
"[This demand] is simply a rejection of the assertion that one cannot rationally show respect for irrational beliefs.

So you're asserting the rationality of your position, and appealing to our value that rational positions be respected. I believed this was implicit in your writing. Thus my last query--and it was a query, even without question marks, so no accusations that I wasn't reading you, thanks very much.

I can sympathize with the cancer example, but I want to examine the mechanism here. I'm not sure it generalizes. The only reason I could sympathize with such a person is that, in this case, the optimism actually makes it *more* likely that they'll succeed in defeating cancer, since optimism and happiness actually boost the immune system. So an irrational belief can actually be better for you than a realistic one.

Now, we can see this feedback effect in other cases where people are facing long odds. The only way the person can find the motivation to keep cracking at something, to keep working at it, is to believe that their chances of success are better than they really are. Perhaps not misleading yourself is a privilege reserved for those who don't have to do so in order to find some measure of meagre happiness.

This is a pretty interesting phenomenon, but I think it has a limited applicability to your argument. In this class of cases, the self-deception has to be about inflating one's own chances of success. That's a limited class of irrational beliefs, so your argument might need to be restricted. I think the various Christian fairy tales can end up having that effect, though. On the other hand, they're often much more grandiose than other irrational beliefs that could have the same effect.

So perhaps beliefs that are much more irrational than they need to be in order to help people along in their lives are worthy of preportionally less respect than those that much closer to being reasonable. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43636: pdf23ds — 10/12  at  12:31 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} And, of course, beliefs that are true and accomplish the same motivating factor are to be preferred above all.

So, in summary, the amount that a belief increases someone's chance of success deserves a corresponding amount of respect, while the degree of its irrationality deserves a corresponding amount of disrespect. The two factors change how one can respect a person independently of each other. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if TRUE} 's avatar {/if} #43637: PZ Myers — 10/12  at  12:33 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE}
For a terminal cancer patient, the irrational belief that they may experience a miracle cure so it's worth struggling through another day, another week, is something I could not only respect but could admire.
I think we're seeing respect creep again.

While I can respect the person and sympathize with them, I would not respect an irrational belief. There is nothing to admire in a desperate long-shot hope for a cure! What you are actually respecting in that case is the persons will to live, and there strength in persevering, which are good and admirable traits. But miracles? No, that's hope and desperation in an unpleasant situation.

Do you also respect the idea of running out and buying a handful of lottery tickets every day, because who knows, one might actually win a hundred million dollars someday? {/if}

{if FALSE} {/if} {if "[color=blue]PZ Myers Division of Science and Math University of "}

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43638: — 10/12  at  12:34 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Steve, The form of your response seems to be about me arguing for a compulsion for you to respect some particular belief (irrational or not). Reflect on what has gone before and see I'm doing no such thing.

Further reflect that it hasn't been about categorically urging anyone to respect any particular belief but rather to allow that such respect can't rationally be ruled out for the sole reason of the irrationality of a belief. The proscription isn't about who can do what, it is about the reasoning behind doing it. If the reasoning is claimed to be rational, that places it on the table for inspection.
If you personally dole out your respect chits purely based on scaled views of rationality, well it would be somewhat irrational but live and let live.

As for specifics, myriad examples can be had offering cases of irrational beliefs that would seemingly defy anything but revulsion. The operative point is that these samples don't argue for the validity of making a categorical judgement. The single counter-example where someone, not necessarily you, can rationally respect an irrational belief is all that is required to dismiss the categorical claim. Such are the rules of logic. {/if}

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{if TRUE} Trackback: Find out what it means to me Tracked on: Catch (66.220.23.241) at 2005 10 12 12:36:55 {/if} {if FALSE} {if FALSE} {/if} #: — {comment_date format='%m/%d'}  at  {comment_date format='%h:%i %A'} {/if}
{if TRUE} If you haven't already, check out the Pharyngula and Butterflies & Wheels posts on Simon Blackburn's excellent Religion and Respect (pdf) article. From Pharyngula: "Respect" is such an awkwardly fluid word, {/if} {if FALSE} {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43639: — 10/12  at  12:38 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Wade, since you're seemingly incapable of staying on point in your replies to me, why don't you have a crack at PZ's last comment, which I fully endorse, instead. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43640: Kagehi — 10/12  at  12:40 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Even more, if the belief of the patient that needs an irrational basis to struggle on employs religion as such a basis, the likely result will be a later belief, if they do survive, that they must promote the idea that such an irrational belief helped them, at the expense of respect for the guy in the next bed, who survived the same hazard, but didn't ask God to help him. In other words, irrational belief tends to promote farther irrational beliefs, which invariably lead to some level of 'in'-tolerance to those that don't share them. I am not clear why I should even give such a person 'equal' points for using such irrationality to help themselves, never mind 'more'. Of course, someone with religious belief might argue that the lack of need for it by the other patient would make them equally less tolerant of religion, but since the argument is if their are resonable times in which respect can be shown for irrational ideas, the idea that someone complaining about not having their irrational ideas respected by someone that found no need for them is completly irrelevant, even if, in theif minds, its somehow 'unfair'. {/if}

{if FALSE} {/if} {if "Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent - Robert A. Heinlein"}

Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent - Robert A. Heinlein

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43643: — 10/12  at  12:57 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} PZ,
You're off base in telling me what it is that I actually respect. I'm inclined to respect that which works. You are of course free to dole your respect out in your own way.

As I said before, rationality has proven to be a poor human motivator and I'd argue this is more than a social meme but instead physiological. Motivation works best with emotional responses feeding that seratonin addiction. Puffy but add your own neurotransmitters to taste.

The inherent danger is that beliefs can be powerful as motivators independent of their rational validity or the virtue of their consequences. It's the disjunction that causes the problem, not the inherit rationality or irrationality of a particular belief. On a gross level, rational views tend toward a safer, if less effective, set of motivators but the trend doesn't provide for absolutes and that has been my complaint. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43646: — 10/12  at  01:07 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Could you baptise ET?

I would conjecture that since we haven't gotten more than a few relative feet off the ground in reaching wherever ET lives, for the foreseeable future meeting ET would have to involve ET coming to see us. If that happens, I think it's also a safe bet that we'd be meeting beings far more advanced than we, and it would be they who would be "baptising" us. Or whatever form their imposition of culture, values and power might take, if they are given to impose such things at all (as the Vatican is). {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43650: Jim Harrison — 10/12  at  01:49 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Aristotle recommended treating popular beliefs with light irony. Works for me.

While I'm at it, can I point out that Christianity and Islam are mighty complicated phenomena. Trying to make a global judgment on the goodness or badness of such tangles of vaguely related beliefs and practices is rather like trying to decide if brunettes are better people than blonds. History shows us that religions have no bones in 'em. Peaceful pietists waiting patiently for inner illumination and ferocious medieval Crusaders busy roasting Saracens over their campfires en brochette all thought of themselves as Christians. The only thing they had in common was the truth value of their beliefs. Unfortunately, this character doesn't distinguish them from Muslims or Buddhists, whose beliefs are also all false. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if TRUE} 's avatar {/if} #43655: — 10/12  at  02:43 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} "The word seems to span a spectrum from simply not interfering, passing by on the other side, through admiration, right up to reverence and deference."

Actually it seems that the word starts from people scaring others 'to show respect' (thereby negating the concept) through demanding respect to the noninterfering concept. It is pretty much a null word by scope and illogical usage.

"I prefer to use the word "tolerate". Good for you! I can not but see religion as a bad ('evil') concept due to the damage and confusion it creates. So I must say that I "endure" it, while I tolerate every person to have his/her opinion of course.

"As people have discussed in the comments before, it's interesting that the US, which has no state religion, is much more aggressively religious than European countries, which often have state religions."

Didn't the state religions force peculiar and/or aggressive religious groups to move elsewhere? {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43656: — 10/12  at  02:58 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Sorry, I'm hung up on, "...andwe am poised to profit from them..." in the poker game analogy. Englishthis am not. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if TRUE} 's avatar {/if} #43657: — 10/12  at  03:11 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} wade:
"You're off base in telling me what it is that I actually respect. I'm inclined to respect that which works."

PZ is describing the more general mechanism that is at work. By your own words his description can not be wrong.

"As I said before, rationality has proven to be a poor human motivator and I'd argue this is more than a social meme but instead physiological. Motivation works best with emotional responses feeding that seratonin addiction.... On a gross level, rational views tend toward a safer, if less effective, set of motivators..."

Rational views lead to more successes since they conform to reality. Success is a powerful and effective motivator!

For example, scientists are a group of _very_ motivated people. They actually accept lesser pay (the mere thought... grin ) for greater work satisfaction in the way of time and time again successfully unraveling how nature works. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43660: — 10/12  at  03:55 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} As someone brought up Catholic, I was struck by Dobson's arrogance in stating that Mieirs (sp?) has believed in Jesus since the 1970s. She was Catholic before she was born again - Catholics are the original Christians. They most certainly do believe in Jesus, and they accept that Protestants believe in Jesus. Just not in the right way. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43661: — 10/12  at  03:57 PM {/if}
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PZ: ... I prefer to use the word "tolerate"; I'd rather reserve respect for those things I find admirable.

"Tolerate" implies that you're putting up with something unpleasant: e.g., I tolerate that my neighbor's dog barks too much, for the sake of getting along. I don't tolerate that my other neighbor's skin is a different color than mine, because that doesn't bother me. (Perhaps I'm over-sensitized to the word on exactly this account, since I was raised in a place & time where "moderates" would loudly proclaim how they "tolerated" black people; eventually I - and they - realized how condescending that was.)
charlie wagner: I respect a woman's right to decide for herself whether or not to have an abortion, but I would not respect her decision to actually have one.

Without even knowing what those reasons are??? That's intolerant, if not intolerable.

(Hint: some women have very, very, very good reasons for aborting a pregnancy, including saving their own lives. Others have what might be seen as frivolous motives - but that in itself shows they'd probably be poor mothers, which is a good reason too.) {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43663: MJS — 10/12  at  04:00 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} The only thing they had in common was the truth value of their beliefs. Unfortunately, this character doesn't distinguish them from Muslims or Buddhists, whose beliefs are also all false.

The Buddha laughs.

+++ {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43668: Arun — 10/12  at  04:28 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Has anyone thought that apart from tolerance of someone's beliefs and not respecting someone's beliefs, there is a third possibility - of being indifferent?

E.g., I do not
- respect
- tolerate
- not respect
your love of baseball. I'm indifferent to it. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43671: Jim Harrison — 10/12  at  05:07 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} In many respects I find Buddhism an admirable religious tradition, but the law of karma and the whole notion of rebirth are just as incredible as the virgin birth or transubstantiation.

I don't know exactly what the Buddha laughs about, but many of the Buddhists I know have a sense of humor about claiming to know about past lives, etc. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43676: HP — 10/12  at  06:00 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I have a question: Is "I believe X" functionally equivalent to "I really, really, really want to believe X"?

Because this discussion seems to hinge on those statements being functionally equivalent.

Also, I'm pretty sure that "I believe X" is not equivalent to "I believe in X," and that's gotta be significant. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43678: — 10/12  at  06:27 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I disagree that the appropriate "respect" for beliefs is mere tolerance. I have a couple of friends who keep kosher. I don't venerate them for that, or think it makes them superior to me, but I don't merely tolerate it, either. I respect their choice. That means that not only do I not try to force-feed them ham, I also try to accomodate the requirements their religion places on them, by offering them only kosher food when they come to visit and bringing only kosher wine when they invite me for dinner.

If the respect you are willing to give religion is mere tolerance, you don't have any right to ask for more than that for your atheism. For example, you have no right to object to Ten Commandments installations in courthouse as long as you aren't required to believe in them. I think our government has a duty, not only to tolerate a variety of religious opinions, but to respect them by making reasonable accomodations for them, whether that means providing kosher or halal meals in prisons or banning prayer from public schools.

If you don't want "respect" to slide into "reverence" then include the concept of mutuality. As long as Christians demand no more respect for Christianity than they are willing to give to other beliefs (or non-beliefs), there is no problem. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43681: paperwight — 10/12  at  07:00 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} In many respects I find Buddhism an admirable religious tradition, but the law of karma and the whole notion of rebirth are just as incredible as the virgin birth or transubstantiation.

There are variants without as much stress on the supernatural. Chogyam Trungpa's Shambhala Centers come to mind. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43682: paperwight — 10/12  at  07:03 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} For example, you have no right to object to Ten Commandments installations in courthouse as long as you aren't required to believe in them.

No, this is incorrect. The remainder of your post is interesting, but this is incorrect. Equal tolerance of everyone's faith or decision against faith requires that the government be neutral. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43686: — 10/12  at  07:19 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Beth displays an innate intelligence that I'm sure most of you will find baffling. PZ's entire screed is rebutted and refuted in her three-paragraph post.

PZ says
I think we're seeing respect creep again

I'm not so sure about respect, but we're certainly seeing a lot of creep - over and over; again, again and again... {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43687: — 10/12  at  07:25 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} To expand on paperwight's comment, search out the books of Steve Hagen (especally Buddism Plain and Simple)and Stephen Batchelor (especially Buddhism Without Beliefs) for very interesting expositions of the core of Buddhist philosophy shorn of supernatural detritus.(Which seems to be pretty close what Gautama Buddha actually had in mind, since he explicity disavowed the quest for any final supernatural, metaphysical "truth", as well any intention to found a religion. The literal belief in rebirth, etc. was really more in the way of cultural baggage from his time and place rather than being essential to his psychological insights.) I have personally found these down-to-earth expositions of the Buddha's ideas to be both congenial and very helpful in times of stress. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43688: — 10/12  at  07:27 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE}
That means that not only do I not try to force-feed them ham, I also try to accomodate the requirements their religion places on them, by offering them only kosher food when they come to visit and bringing only kosher wine when they invite me for dinner.

I wonder what makes the aptly named Jester imagine that PZ would do anything different. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43690: — 10/12  at  08:19 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Beth proclaimed:

I disagree that the appropriate "respect" for beliefs is mere tolerance. I have a couple of friends who keep kosher. I don't venerate them for that, or think it makes them superior to me, but I don't merely tolerate it, either. I respect their choice. That means that not only do I not try to force-feed them ham, I also try to accomodate the requirements their religion places on them, by offering them only kosher food when they come to visit and bringing only kosher wine when they invite me for dinner.


I disagree that the appropriate "respect" for beliefs is mere tolerance. I have a couple of friends who keep kosher are white supremacists. I don't venerate them for that, or think it makes them superior to me, but I don't merely tolerate it, either. I respect their choice. That means that not only do I not try to force-feed them ham Malcolm X videos, I also try to accomodate the requirements their religionbelief system places on them, by offering them only kosher foodhate literature when they come to visit and bringing only kosher winewhite robes with hoods when they invite me for dinner. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if TRUE} 's avatar {/if} #43691: PZ Myers — 10/12  at  08:50 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I don't think keeping kosher and white supremacy are equivalent; the former is harmless nonsense, the latter is harmful and hateful.

But Beth is making an odd argument anyway. I don't force Jews to eat ham, nor do I hunt down Baptists and make them swear oaths to Satan. Why should I respect bizarre dietary practices, though? If they don't want to eat ham, they shouldn't have to...but I shouldn't be expected to think their quirks are particularly noble. And I don't respect people because their religion compels them to do something, but because of who they are. {/if}

{if FALSE} {/if} {if "[color=blue]PZ Myers Division of Science and Math University of "}

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43693: — 10/12  at  09:37 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} The point I hope some of us are making is that it should not be seen as wrong if some of us find admirable traits in even irrational beliefs (some of them, not all, and not because they are irrational but despite it). The point is to not require that everyone see things our own way. And yes that does work both ways, nobody is required to find the self-discipline of the fasters admirable. Or if you still have trouble understanding the bridge, advancing admiration to the self-discipline to the beliefs that inspire it.

The initial objection from the Blackburn essay is that one shouldn't be compelled to respect irrational beliefs. Indeed! Granted. The counter is that one shouldn't feel compelled to not respect them either. Rationality need not become a surrogate diety: all praise rationality, smite the unrational heathens! Substitute smite with sneer, scorn or otherwise hold in some degree of contemt as you prefer. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43696: — 10/12  at  10:05 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} <blockquote>There is no go between because really, if people were honest, they are incompatible.<blockquote>

No surprise that a guy who styles himself "Uber" feels he is the authority on why others think what they do. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43698: — 10/12  at  10:17 PM {/if}
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"But that philosophy certainly doesn't tell me HOW God did it"

Or anything else either. At least not anymore than believing in the Flying pasta monster would.


Indeed. I'm guessing Uber will be surprised that some Christians think FSM is as big a hoot as anyone else does and recognize that FSMism is as good a scientific explanation for the world as creationism/ID. While Uber will doubtless be confident that he can read my mind and know I'm not being honest with myself, I'm a Christian who happily wears his Kansas Museum of Science (as seen on venganza.org) T-shirt. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43705: — 10/12  at  11:04 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Equal tolerance of everyone's faith or decision against faith requires that the government be neutral.

I was ignoring the establishment clause, which requires neutrality, but I don't think it would have been necessary to remove the monument to show tolerance for non-belief, only to show respect for it.

I don't think keeping kosher and white supremacy are equivalent; the former is harmless nonsense, the latter is harmful and hateful.

Agreed. I have neither respect nor tolerance for the latter, and see no reason why I should.

I don't force Jews to eat ham

I wasn't trying to suggest you do. In fact I was suggesting just the opposite. Your belief in tolerance would prevent you from doing that, but it wouldn't compel you to take the additional step of catering to their dietary restrictions as I do. The point I was trying to make is that there's a difference between refraining from acting against something (tolerating it) and making an effort to accomodate something (respecting it). I don't have any particular respect for Jewish dietary laws, but I do respect my friends' decision to follow them. If they someday decide to abandon the laws, I won't try to talk them out of it or think any less of them because of it. I'll respect whatever decisions they make about their religious practice as long as it isn't harmful or cruel. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43706: — 10/12  at  11:19 PM {/if}
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I don't think keeping kosher and white supremacy are equivalent; the former is harmless nonsense, the latter is harmful and hateful.


Of course. In fact I was trying to show that a belief syste (and its adherents) do not automatically merit respect in the sense that Beth was using the word. What we all do, either consciously or unconsciously, is evaluate a belief system in some way, and then if we respect it, we respect it, and if we don't we don't. Beth's statement was, "I disagree that the appropriate 'respect' for beliefs is mere tolerance." She can't really believe that for all belief systems. I'm sure she chooses which she will show respect for. But we are entrained, particularly in the U.S., to show respect, deference, non-judgement, and good wishes towards religious belief systems. Some of that is just being nice. But some of it probably is "respect creep". {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43708: — 10/13  at  12:49 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Tastant, I find your reductio ad absurdum disrespectful, and even offensive. You seem to be saying that examples like white supremacy undermine my argument and support PZ's, but that's only valid if the proper response to white supremecy is to simply ignore it. Is that really what you believe? If so, I have no respect for your belief at all. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43709: — 10/13  at  01:18 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} In the unlikely event that I had friends who kept kosher, I would treat them just as Beth suggests - but not out of respect for their religious beliefs (which I would simply tolerate), but because they were my friends, so obviously individuals whose feelings I cared about. Interesting though how people in general are much more prepared to accomodate guests' religiously inspired dietary requirements than vegetarianism pursued for moral reasons.
BTW, by definition, to tolerate something, it must be something you disapprove of. You don't get brownie points for 'tolerating' something if you really don't mind it. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43710: — 10/13  at  02:11 AM {/if}
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BTW, by definition, to tolerate something, it must be something you disapprove of. You don't get brownie points for 'tolerating' something if you really don't mind it.


Hence PZ tolerates other peoples' religion.

I think people are confusing different issues. I respect other peoples' right to believe differently than me (for example being Christians), but I don't respect them for being religioius or respect their belief. That I tolerate.

When I get visits by people whose religion/morale leads them to avoid certain foods, or only eat food prepared in special ways, I acknowledge this, by ensuring that I don't serve anything that they can't/won't eat.
This is not a matter of respect or tolerance - they wouldn't be invited if I didn't at least tolerate them. This has more to do with being a good host. If I didn't want them to be able to eat with me, why would I invite them? {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43714: icecube — 10/13  at  04:43 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Beth, I have to say I like you've raised the tone a lot.

I myself after this am thinking strongly along the lines that it's a little bit silly to try (and fail) to speak in generalities about these sorts of things (at least divorced from society and personal relations). {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43716: — 10/13  at  06:26 AM {/if}
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The point I hope some of us are making is that it should not be seen as wrong...

You're the guy who bridled when he thought he was being told how to think, yet here you are lecturing those who disagree with you on how they should think. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43729: — 10/13  at  08:51 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} steve, Do try to read the whole and watch out for this problem you have with the logical error of excluded middle.
Just after the part you quote was
The point is to not require that everyone see things our own way.
The perhaps too subtle issue is that while it allows you to be intolerant in your personal views it rejects the imposing that standard on others. Yes, this is sort of an intolerance of intolerance. If the contradiction bothers you, read Whitman's Leaves of Grass and ponder vastness. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43741: — 10/13  at  09:56 AM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} I disagree with wade on his assumption that there is any occasion where we should respect irrational belief. Respect is a "high or special regard" for something, while irrationality describes something "lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence." As creatures who rely almost entirely on our rational minds to get along in this world, irrationality seems a trait that should command zero respect from us.

Now, you can debate until you're blue in the face whether religious belief is inherently irrational, but no one will ever agree. Seems no one ever has. And if anyone could proove definitively that religion is irrational, then I would say that it is certainly no longer worthy of respect. Of course the same applies for atheism...regardless of how much more rational that stance seems to me, personally. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if TRUE} 's avatar {/if} #43766: — 10/13  at  12:25 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} ""Equal tolerance of everyone's faith or decision against faith requires that the government be neutral.

I was ignoring the establishment clause, which requires neutrality, but I don't think it would have been necessary to remove the monument to show tolerance for non-belief, only to show respect for it."

Read that again; _equal_ tolerance requires neutrality, so no religious or non-religious propaganda at the establishment.

"Interesting though how people in general are much more prepared to accomodate guests' religiously inspired dietary requirements than vegetarianism pursued for moral reasons."

Is that so? Where I live it took a while to allow kosher food, and kosher and halal slaughter is outlawed since it causes animal pain and stress. Currently religious groups are pressing for a law change to give electrical pain relief immediately _after_ the cut. Why it is necessary to cause pain is of course absolutely unclear for a bystander; it seems immoral, irrational and unechonomical.

Vegetarian foods are popular at the restaurants, however. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43768: — 10/13  at  12:29 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} PZ Myers wrote "Why should I respect bizarre dietary practices, though?"

I realize that this is intended rhetorically, but it doesn't seem that hard to answer.

To begin with, I can respect the fact that some kind of shared culture was able to keep an ancient people together through slavery, exodus, diaspora, and a long series of pogroms, resulting in contributions to Western civilization too numerous to count. Whatever they were trying to do, it worked out better than, say, what the Hittites or the Etruscans were doing.

Now, you might say that it's still not rational, or that it might be better if we didn't have arbitrary cultural differences (I tend towards that view myself) but you also cannot deny that these practices, rational or not, had a tangible impact on outcome, and that the outcome was worthy of respect.

Secondarily, I respect the fact that someone who keeps kosher or adheres to other purity laws is practicing self-discipline. I think that even irrational self-discipline spills over into other areas and up to a point will lead to virtue (beyond a point, I think it leads to stultifying rigidity). They could spend an hour a day doing piano lessons and it would still show in other places.

I think P Z Myers is taking a lot of practices on face value, when in fact their real value is usually not the one advertised. I believe that if a person or group of people is worthy of respect, then their culture is also worthy of respect since all empirical evidence shows that they would not be the same people without that culture. The two are inseparable.

Or, to use another example, take the medieval Church. It's easy to make it into a whipping boy for hindering the Enlightenment but it's not really obvious what would have happened without it. Did it delay the rediscovery of classical thought, or did it keep the world safe for its eventual renewal? For instance, I find beauty in the Book of Kells whether or not I think it has value beyond art. The craft itself is worthy of respect. I'm not too keen on dwelling on why it was done; could the illuminators really have done something better if wrenched from their cultural context?

Finally, I dismiss the posting substituting "white supremacism" for the original. I have no problem in saying that some cultural practices (e.g. human sacrifice, or foot-binding) are intrinsically harmful and deserve neither tolerance nor respect. However, many are neutral from my perspective, and often these are precious to those who hold them. I cannot respect a person without respecting their culture because it would be an insult to tell them that I feel their deeply held values are worthless. So, yes, I respect the culture or religion as well as the person. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43784: — 10/13  at  01:52 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} 'blockquote>There is no go between because really, if people were honest, they are incompatible.<blockquote>

No surprise that a guy who styles himself "Uber" feels he is the authority on why others think what they do. '

Ahhh, so actually you didn't have a rebuttal past an ad hominum. It is fairly obvious that science deals with evidence and facts and well, religion doesn't.

'Indeed. I'm guessing Uber will be surprised that some Christians think FSM is as big a hoot as anyone else does and recognize that FSMism is as good a scientific explanation for the world as creationism/ID.'

Since Uber is a Christian and thinks it's a hoot he does in fact recognize these things. Presumptions will get you no where.


'While Uber will doubtless be confident that he can read my mind and know I'm not being honest with myself, I'm a Christian who happily wears his Kansas Museum of Science (as seen on venganza.org) T-shirt.'

Good for you. You are a very defensive personality. Odd.

No matter what I said still stands. My beliefs are my beliefs and I readily admit I hold them for what are likely irrational reasons. I also accept that science and logic make many religious(maybe all) rather silly. But I take martin Gardners approach, and apply it to the religion of my youth minus much of the supernatural aspects. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43788: — 10/13  at  02:05 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} 'Catholics are the original Christians'

Not really, a common misconception. There was no 'Christian' church until it was brought together under Roman rule. There were many sects all operating not so differently from today.

The first 'Christians' where likely gnostic jews and gentiles with a few pagans thrown in for good measure.

The first large organized church was Roman. And it's rules and practices are very different from those in the church today. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43796: — 10/13  at  02:43 PM {/if}
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'Catholics are the original Christians'

Not really, a common misconception. There was no 'Christian' church until it was brought together under Roman rule. There were many sects all operating not so differently from today.


Quite right. Also, it's worth noting that the Greek Orthodoxs have as good a claim to be the orginal Christians. It was just a question of which pope they supported during the time of two popes. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43805: — 10/13  at  04:10 PM {/if}
{if FALSE} {/if} {if TRUE} Beth said: Tastant, I find your reductio ad absurdum disrespectful, and even offensive. You seem to be saying that examples like white supremacy undermine my argument and support PZ's, but that's only valid if the proper response to white supremecy is to simply ignore it. Is that really what you believe? If so, I have no respect for your belief at all.

Beth, it was meant to be provocative, it was meant to be ad absurdum, it wasn't meant to be disrespectful, and I can't control whether others are offended. I'm not even sure what you are offended about.

What I think is this: there are levels of "affective consideration" for others' beliefs. Let me give a little scale and an example of each:

-2 Strongly disapprove/work to hinder (white supremacy)
-1 Tolerate despite disapproval (PZ's take on rituals)
0 Absolutely indifferent (my take on guys who wear plaid)
1 Approve of a little/work to facilitate (your kosher pals)
2 Strongly approve/are a member and advocate for (????)

You bring up the idea of the "proper response" to white supremacy... Who is to say what's the "proper" response for any belief? I mean, my own feeling is that white supremacy is idiotic, hateful, and I'd love to see it become one of mankind's historical barbarisms. But that's because I have certain beliefs about race and egalitarianism. If you ask a white supremacist, they will tell you their position is the proper one, their actions are proper. We think they're wrong. They think we're wrong.

The point is, where one falls on the -2 to 2 scale above is going to be due not to what is "proper" in some objective way, as if there is some higher authority we can all appeal to, but what one believes. So for you, you see keeping kosher as harmless and therefore your default is to respect it since your friends take it so seriously. But others see it as cruel, because of the details of modern kosher cattle butchering practices (put kosher and cruel in Google). So who is right? And that is the inappropriate question. {/if}

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{if FALSE} Trackback: Religion, real and unreal Tracked on: () at {trackback_date format="%Y %m %d %H:%i:%s"} {/if} {if TRUE} {if FALSE} {/if} #43854: — 10/13  at  10:06 PM {/if}
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Quite right. Also, it's worth noting that the Greek Orthodox have as good a claim to be the orginal Christians. It was just a question of which pope they supported during the time of two popes.

Actually, isn't the Armenian Orthodox Church supposed to be the oldest Christian church still in existence? {/if}

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{if TRUE} Trackback: R-E-S-P-E-C-T, Find Out What it Means to Me Tracked on: Agnosticism/Atheism (207.241.148.39) at 2005 10 26 11:37:41 {/if} {if FALSE} {if FALSE} {/if} #: — {comment_date format='%m/%d'}  at  {comment_date format='%h:%i %A'} {/if}
{if TRUE} What does it mean to 'respect' someone's religion or religious beliefs? Many believers insist that their religion deserves to be respected, even by non-believers, but what exactly are they asking for? If they are simply asking to be let alone... {/if} {if FALSE} {/if}

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