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Tuesday, January 10, 2006

Luskin's ludicrous genetics

I mentioned before that IDEA clubs insist that expertise is optional; well, it's clear that that is definitely true. Casey Luskin, the IDEA club coordinator and president, has written an utterly awful article "rebutting" part of Ken Miller's testimony in the Dover trial. It is embarrassingly bad, a piece of dreck written by a lawyer that demonstrates that he knows nothing at all about genetics, evolution, biology, or basic logic. I'll explain a few of his misconceptions about genetics, errors in the reproductive consequences of individuals with Robertsonian fusions, and how he has completely misrepresented the significance of the ape:human chromosome comparisons.

In Miller's testimony, he talked about a basic fact of biology: most apes have 24 pairs chromosomes for a total of 48, while we have 23, for a total of 46. We are familiar with the fact that errors in chromosome number, called aneuploidies, within the human species are devastating and have dramatic effects; the most familiar aneuploidy is Down syndrome, but there are others, which all lead to very short lifespans and extremely disabling phenotypes. Most aneuploidies are embryonically lethal and lead to spontaneous abortions. If evolution is valid, we should be able to see how that occurred historically, in a way that requires no mysterious interventions and only natural, observable mechanisms. Miller summarized it quite well.

Now, there's no possibility that that common ancestry which would have had 48 chromosomes because the other three species have 48, there's no possibility the chromosome could have just got lost or thrown away. Chromosome has so much genetic information on it that the loss of a whole chromosome would probably be fatal. So that's not a hypothesis.

Therefore, evolution makes a testable prediction, and that is, somewhere in the human genome we've got to be able to find a human chromosome that actually shows the point at which two of these common ancestors were pasted together. We ought to be able to find a piece of Scotch tape holding together two chromosomes so that our 24 pairs -- one of them was pasted together to form just 23. And if we can't find that, then the hypothesis of common ancestry is wrong and evolution is mistaken.

The answer is, of course, that the evolutionary prediction holds true: we do find the homologs of two genes fused together in our chromosome 2. We have the human and chimpanzee sequences, and we can see the same genes in our chromosome 2 that are found on two other chimpanzee chromosomes; we can see the structure of two centromeres in our one chromosome, and also the relics of telomeres (normally at the ends of chromosomes) imbedded in the middle. It is an open-and-shut case.

Casey Luskin doesn't understand any of it. His response is to throw out a series of foolish speculations that have long since been discarded and that completely contradict all of the evidence.

Why couldn't it be the case that the common ancestor had 23 distinct chromosomes, and one chromosome underwent duplication in the line that led to apes? Or maybe the common ancestor had 20 distinct chromosomes and there have been 4 duplications events in the ape line, and 3 in the human line?; or maybe the ancestor had 30 distinct chromosomes and there have been 6 fusion events for ape-line but 7 fusion events for the human-line.

Do you see my point? Simple chromosome-counting or comparisons of numbers of chromosomes does not lead common ancestry to make any hard predictions about how many chromosomes our alleged ape-human common ancestor had. So, under Miller's logic, there is no reason why a chromosomal fusion event is a necessary prediction of common ancestry for all upper primates.

That's pathetic. The reason evolutionists proposed a chromosomal fusion event is that all of the duplication events he proposes would have major phenotypic consequences (Down syndrome is caused by a duplication of one very small chromosome, for instance) and would represent a serious obstacle to evolution—Miller stated so very plainly. Some lineages are tolerant of that kind of massive genomic change, but ours is not. Multiple independent fusions are possible, but improbable; we can see evidence of it in species that have diverged for a long time (mouse and human chromosomes are dramatically rearranged relative to one another, for instance), but apes haven't been separated as long. We have also had evidence for about 40 years that on a gross level, the structure of the chromosomes in all apes was very similar.

Luskin is tossing around these wild ideas in a very lawyerly tactic—he's trying to cast doubt on the best explanation by pretending there are a multitude of alternatives. Those alternatives are not reasonable, and he knows it: he even admits it.

So I am more than willing to acknowledge and affirm that Miller did provide some very good direct empirical evidence for a chromosomal fusion event which created human chromosome #2. But I'm more interested in two other questions: if we accept Miller's chromosomal fusion evidence as accurate, then (1) is his chromosome fusion story good evidence for Neo-Darwinian common ancestry between humans and apes? Or (2) does it perhaps pose great problems for a Neo-Darwinian account?

The answer to question (1) is "NO" and the answer to question (2) is "YES!"

Oh, dear. This is where Luskin goes off the rails, and abandons all reason.

(1) is a bogus framing of the issue. The fusion is not evidence of common ancestry; it's the common genomic content of all ape chromosomes that is the evidence. The fusion accounts for a superficial difference in the appearance of the karyotype, but the underlying genetic sequence is what exposes the relatedness of humans and other apes. Luskin harps on this bizarre notion of his, that the occurrence of a fusion is the key to human evolution.

All Miller has done is documented direct empirical evidence of a chromosomal fusion event in humans. But evidence for a chromosomal fusion event is not evidence for when that event took place, nor is it evidence for the ancestry prior to that event.

Yes, that is correct. Miller wasn't claiming anything about when it occurred, or that the fusion says anything about prior ancestry: it's the sequence, stupid. But look here, here's Luskin's real agenda.

Given that we had a 48-chromosome ancestor, we don't know if our 48-chromosome ancestor was an ape or not. For all we know, our 48-chromosome ancestor was a part of a separately designed species, as fully human as anyone you meet on the street today. There is no good reason to think that going from a 46-chromosome individual to a 48-chromosome individual would make our species more ape-like.

Separate creation. We ain't descended from no monkeys. Miller's point is that chromosome number is not a good indicator of different ancestry, but Luskin wants to turn that around and claim any ol' ancestry is therefore equally valid…but it's not. It's the sequence, not the fusion, that tells us of our relatedness. And of course no one has proposed that a simple chromosome fusion or separation is responsible for the differences between us and other apes.

That humans are most closely related to apes and that we all had a common ancestor in the relatively recent past is not a point in contention by any reasonable scientist. This is the kind of false malarkey the IDists want to push in our schools—it's simply bad science to deny common ancestry.

What about Luskin's point (2), that the fused chromosome is a problem for the neo-Darwinian account? It's more nonsense (what else would you expect?).

Under Neo-Darwinism, genetic mutation events (including chromosomal aberrations) are generally assumed to be random and unguided. Miller's Cold-Fusion tale becomes more suspicious when one starts to ask harder questions like "how could a natural, unguided chromosomal fusion event get fixed into a population, much less how could it result in viable offspring?" Miller's account must overcome two potential obstacles:

(1) In most of our experience, individuals with the randomly-fused chromosome can be normal, but it is very likely that their offspring will ultimately have a genetic disease. A classic example of such is a cause of Down syndrome.

Not quite. What we see in humans is a classic instance of a Robertsonian translocation. These happen quite often—1 in 900 births bear a fusion of this kind—and they cause no immediate problems at all. The affected individual has a full and normal genetic complement; it's just that two of their chromosomes are stuck together. It can cause reduced fertility, but is unlikely (except in some known, specific cases) to lead to offspring with a genetic disease.

Let me explain why. Assume we have a set of genes (a) found on one chromosome, and a set of genes (b) found on another. Everyone has two copies of each set, so in a normal diploid cell, we have (a) (a) (b) (b). In meiosis, the cellular mechanisms segregate the chromosomes in an orderly way, so each gamete gets one set (a) and one set (b), each gamete looks like this: (a) (b).

In an individual with a Robertsonian fusion, though, each diploid cell looks like this: (a) (b) (a:b). They have three chromosomes instead of four, even if they do have the proper doses of (a) and (b). Now when meiosis occurs, the cell has to sort 3 chromosomes into two cells, and there are multiple ways this can happen:

(a) (b)a normal gamete : normal
(a:b)a gamete carrying the fusion, but with the normal complement of genes: normal
(a) (a:b)a gamete with an extra (a)—lethal
(a)a gamete with an no (b)—lethal
(b) (a:b)a gamete with an extra (b)—lethal
(b)a gamete with a no (a)—lethal

As you can see, several of the combinations produce viable gametes, and this individual can have healthy children with no detectable problems, although half of them will carry the Robertsonian fusion. The other gametes have serious problems, and will typically lead to very early miscarriages, especially if they involve a large chromosome, like chromosome 2. They will have more problems conceiving, but their children will be normal.

If the fusion chromosome spreads through the population, something interesting will happen, and some people will have diploid cells like this: (a:b) (a:b). All of their gametes will be (a:b), and all will be normal. Fusions like this put up measurable but not at all insurmountable barriers to reproduction and can make it easier for carriers to reproduce with each other, so they can be mechanisms for reproductive isolation and speciation.

Again, Luskin doesn't understand this basic concept, and he compounds his error with quote mining and poor scholarship.

(2) One way around the problem in (1) is to find a mate that also had an identical chromosomal fusion event. But Valentine and Erwin imply that such events would be highly unlikely: "[T]he chance of two identical rare mutant individuals arising in sufficient propinquity to produce offspring seems too small to consider as a significant evolutionary event."
(Erwin, D..H., and Valentine, J.W. "'Hopeful monsters,' transposons, and the Metazoan radiation", Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci USA, 81:5482-5483, Sept 1984)

The problem in (1) is not a problem. As I just explained, you don't need a mate with an identical fusion event to successfully reproduce.

His choice of an article to back up his assertion is weird. The article is from 1984, for one thing; why dig up a 22 year old article to support a basic point? For another, the article does not discuss the viability of hybrids with Robertsonian fusions at all. It is specifically about the possibility of large scale mutations that generate major morphological novelties.

The article is a short speculative work that suggests a way to get around the objection they mention, and that is the center of Luskin's argument—in other words, it's a paper that says how Luskin is wrong. (It also happens to be a proposal I don't find too likely: Erwin and Valentine suggest that one way the frequency of novel mutations could rapidly rise to overcome the problem is by site-specific horizontal transfer of transposable elements. Mmmm, maybe, but I'd want to see more evidence of such transformations associated with key innovations.)

Fortunately for the short attention span of creationist, their quote is from the second sentence of the paper. I can only assume they didn't bother to read any further. Does anyone else have this mental image of Discovery Institute "scholars" poring over science papers with almost no comprehension, but happily plucking out random sentences here and there that they can misuse? I suspect they have a compendium of such fragments that their fellows use, without the need of ever having to actually read any science.

In other words, Miller has to explain why a random chromosomal fusion event which, in our experience ultimately results in offspring with genetic diseases, didn’t result in a genetic disease and was thus advantageous enough to get fixed into the entire population of our ancestors. Given the lack of empirical evidence that random chromosomal fusion events are not disadvantageous, perhaps the presence of a chromosomal fusion event is not good evidence for a Neo-Darwinian history for humans.

No, no. Duplications in humans lead to genetic diseases. Miller was explaining that there is a normal genetic mechanism for fusions that represents an evolutionary pathway without the detriment of a major duplication/deletion that leads to our current chromosome arrangements.

The only guy proposing a path by way of duplications and their concomitant problems was Luskin.

Miller may have found good empirical evidence for a chromosomal fusion event. But all of our experience with mammalian genetics tells us that such a chromosomal aberration should have resulted in a non-viable mutant, or non-viable offspring. Thus, Neo-Darwinism has a hard time explaining why such a random fusion event was somehow advantageous.

Whoa, irony meter, calm down. Luskin telling us about "all of our experience with mammalian genetics"? He's wrong. He doesn't even have basic textbook knowledge of genetics. Our experience with mammalian genetics tells us that he is babbling out of his butt: fusions have no such problem yielding viable offspring.

If you bother to take a look at the list of articles maintained by the IDEA center, you'll see that the majority of them are by Luskin, and he's usually pontificating about similarly imaginary problems in evolutionary theory, problems that are actually with his own shameful lack of knowledge about the subject. This pathetic ignoramus is the primary source of information for the collegians they're trying to recruit into their IDEA clubs? I'd consider it a source of embarrassment to have an organization dedicated to such foolishness on my campus.


Trackback url: http://tangledbank.net/index/trackback/3699/

Comments:
#57241: Jim Anderson — 01/10  at  01:19 PM
Next up: Luskin disses the Vitamin C evidence "because they're a crappy band."



#57243: — 01/10  at  01:25 PM
Written by a lawyer?

Lawyers generally learn in law school to defer to experts in various fields, and not try to make the case on the basis of the lawyer's own testimony.

The errors of biology are made possible first by the lawyerly error of assuming one knows more than one does.

Luskin's article is bad biology, sure -- but it's even worse lawyering, for exactly that reason.



#57246: — 01/10  at  02:03 PM
of course it had to be written by a lawyer. No credible scientist would believe any of it, nor would they come up with such convoluted ill-logic to try to prove it. But that's what lawyers do, point of fact.



#57248: RPM — 01/10  at  02:15 PM
Even an argument about duplication would be bogus because of the amount of substantial duplications segregating in populations as Mendelian variants (aka, not mutations in the germline of the previous generation). Luskin doesn't understand how to distill information - yes, there are deleterious rearrangements, but there are also a whole bunch of (nearly) neutral ones. It's just that there has been an ascertainment bias in discovering fussion/fissions, deletions/duplications, and inversion associated with disease. That bias is now fading with population genomic studies of human variation -- there are a lot of structural differences between two "normal" humans.



#57249: — 01/10  at  02:15 PM
I imagine Luskin sees himself following in the honorable steps of Philip Johnson's essay attacking evolution as if science was no more than a matter to be settled in court, where all the vulgar tricks lawyers get up to in trial cases are used as if they were equivalent to logic and actual evidence. If only they did defer to experts . . . .



#57256: — 01/10  at  02:54 PM
I am not a scientist. I only keep up on science in a vague way. The last biology class I took was over a decade ago. And even so, I knew this was complete bullshit:

"(1) In most of our experience, individuals with the randomly-fused chromosome can be normal, but it is very likely that their offspring will ultimately have a genetic disease. A classic example of such is a cause of Down syndrome."

(A) Down syndrome is caused by a duplication (as our host pointed out above) but also (B) Down syndrome is a random occurrence AFAIK. It's not a genetic disease like, say, Tay-Sachs or sickle-cell, where you can be a carrier and not realize you could pass it along to your offspring.

Hopefully no parents of Down syndrome children read the article and said, "Ohmigod, it really WAS something in our genes that made it happen!"



#57257: — 01/10  at  02:55 PM
I'm betting Luskin doesn't know that there are documented examples of animals producing offspring even though they don't have the same number of chromosomes (because of fusion/fission events). For example, "Przewalski's Wild Horse has 66 chromosomes while the domesticated horse has 64 chromosomes. Despite this difference in chromosome number, Przewalski's Wild Horse and the domesticated horse can be crossed and do produce fertile offspring".



#57259: SLPage — 01/10  at  03:05 PM
Just a plug:

http://all-too-common-dissent.blogspot.com/



#57260: — 01/10  at  03:06 PM
The issue with human chromosome 2 seems to be less about direct evidence for ancestry, and more about identifying a possible problem for Evolution, i.e. a test, and showing that Evolution passes the test with flying colors. I think Ken Miller did a great job explaining that in Ohio last week. Why this dope thinks that the fusion event is considered, by Miller, to be direct evidence for ancestry is completely beyond me. As PZ said, it's the sequence that provides evidence for ancestry, not the fusion itself.



Trackback: Creationist Genome Rearrangements Tracked on: evolgen (72.9.234.70) at 2006 01 10 14:48:12
Following in the footsteps of John Davison, Disco fan and (bad) IDEA club head honcho Casey Luskin has delved into the genome rearrangements discussion. The premise of his argument (from what I can gather seeing as this guy ain't no Dobzhansky) is th...



#57267: — 01/10  at  03:35 PM
Lately, I have one and only one reaction to everything the DI says: "Tell it to the judge". Mr. Luskin, you had your entire legal and intellectual A-team available in Dover. You cross-examined Ken Miller with your best lawyers. You presented your choice of expert witnesses, who presented the best results from their decades of work on ID.

So it's three weeks after the trial, after the nasty "cross-examiners" and "impartial judges" and "witness oaths" have gone home, and only now Mr. Luskin comes up with his rebuttal. Lovely bit of esprit d'escalier, there.



#57268: Kristine Harley — 01/10  at  03:38 PM
Well, I certainly defer to the experts! PZ, thank you for doing all the hard work, responding to yet another program of distortion and slight-of-hand by these charlatans, which can really make a nonscientist's head swim, and for providing an invaluable resource of true information.

I wonder if anyone has ever drawn up a creationist extinction tree, as it were, like the evolutionary tree (or "bush") but showing instead all the branches of different creationist theories and imaginary "problems" with evolution that have bitten the dust over the years? Maybe Barbara Forrest and Paul Gross have done this? A pictoral representation would be amusing, and would hit the point home effectively, I think.



#57269: — 01/10  at  03:39 PM
With apologies to Mr. Thayer...
The Outlook wasn't brilliant for the Institute that day:
After they lost Dover, the donors wouldn’t pay.
And then Behe died in testimony, and Minich did the same,
A sickly silence fell upon the patrons of the ID game.
A straggling few got up to go in deep despair. The rest
Clung to that hope which springs eternal in their tiny brains
They thought, if only Casey could tell a lie or two
We'd put up even money, now, ‘cause Casey’s such a tool.
So Dembski whined to Casey, as did also John G West,
And the former was a lulu and the latter was a cake;
So upon that stricken Institute grim melancholy grew
For there seemed but little chance of Casey's getting to the truth.

Then from 5,000 Christian throats and more there rose a lusty hymn;
It rumbled through the School Board, it rattled in the gymn;
It came up from the sewer and recoiled upon the plain,
For Casey, wack-job Casey, was writing something lame.
There was grease in Casey's manner as he stepped into his place;
There were lies in Casey's writing and drool on Casey's face.
And when, responding to the DI cheers, he slandered a good judge,
No stranger in the crowd could doubt 'twas Casey throwing fudge.
Ten thousand eyes were on him as he tried to obfuscate
Five thousand Pandas taunted him for his large mistakes.
Then while the writhing preacher called down the wrath of God,
Chromosomes gleamed in Casey's eye, but PZ mowed him down.
Do you see my point he begged, the chromosomes say NO!
And Casey stood a-hopin his argument could go;
Close by the flakey Discovery tool, the answer unheeded sped-
"That ain't my style," said Casey. "Strike one," the Pandas said.
From the benches, black with people, there went up a muffled roar,
Like the beating of the storm-waves on a stern and distant shore.
"Kill him! Kill the Scientist" shouted someone on the Christian right;
And its likely they'd a-killed him if Casey had his way tonight.
Never one for Christian charity, slick Casey's visage shone;
He stirred the rising tumult; he wanted science gone.
He tried to count the chromosomes, and once more the answers flew;
But Casey still ignored them, and the Pandas said, "Strike two."
DI is "Fraud!" cried the maddened thousands, and echo answered fraud;
But a special pleading look from Casey and the audience guffawed.
They saw his face grow stern and cold, they saw his girly muscles strain,
And they knew that Casey didn’t have the balls to go again.
The sneer is stuck on Casey's lip, his teeth are clenched in hate;
He pounds with cruel violence upon the Buckeye State
Once more PZ Myers responds, and throws the answer back to him,
And now Casey is shattered by the force of Myers’ reason.
Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
Because there is no joy in Discoveryville -slimy Casey has struck out.



#57273: — 01/10  at  04:04 PM
Fucking brilliant, J-Dog.

Casey Luskin is shut a pathetic shill. I can't wait until he is disbarred for reciting his bullcrap.



's avatar #57276: — 01/10  at  04:11 PM
Luskin forgot XO, XXY, XYY individuals too.

Perhaps not so surprising since creationists seems to avoid thinking about sex. It isn't a natural act, you know.



#57277: — 01/10  at  04:13 PM
It's interesting to note that Luskin received his MS from the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, even though most of the departments there (including the Geological Sciences curricular group that Luskin was enrolled in) focus almost exclusively on graduating Ph.D. scientists. Scripps awards Master's degrees primarily as "consolation prizes" for students who wash out of the Ph.D. program there.

(From http://www.siograddept.ucsd.edu/admissions/)

The graduate department of Scripps Institution of Oceanography offers instruction leading to Ph.D. degrees in Oceanography, Marine Biology, and Earth Sciences. No undergraduate major is offered in the department, although most courses are open to enrollment for qualified undergraduate students with the consent of the instructor.


A Master's degree from Scripps is not all that much to brag about -- it most likely means that the degree holder flunked his/her qualifying exams, or couldn't cut it in terms of getting his/her dissertation done. So basically, Luskin was a "wash-out" -- he simply did not have the talent to earn a Scripps Ph.D. (not that anyone familiar with Luskin's work would be surprised).



#57278: — 01/10  at  04:14 PM

#57267: Ben M — 01/10 at 03:35 PM
Lately, I have one and only one reaction to everything the DI says: "Tell it to the judge". Mr. Luskin, you had your entire legal and intellectual A-team available in Dover. You cross-examined Ken Miller with your best lawyers. You presented your choice of expert witnesses, who presented the best results from their decades of work on ID.

Sorta kinda. I guess you mean 'the ID movement', as Judge Jones called them. You may recall, however, the falling out between the Discovery Institute crowd, which would include Luskin, and the Thomas More Law Center. The former withdrew most of its expert witnesses because they couldn't have their own lawyers running things. The TMLC proceeded without them.



#57279: — 01/10  at  04:22 PM
wow. nothing like an old-fashiond ID asswhuppin to make my day that much better. Thanks, professor



#57282: — 01/10  at  04:51 PM
Funny to hear courts and lawyers dumped on when the result in Kitzmiller could hardly have been any better. How soon people forget.

The thing to keep in mind is there are good lawyers and, uh, not so good lawyers. As in many other fields, a lawyer deeply committed a priori to a particular view is easily misled by his hopes and expectations. They also won't be able to see both sides of an issue, which is a key skill of a useful lawyer and often the bane of clients trying to get unequivocal direction out of their lawyer. Also, in this case, Mr Luskin is being his own lawyer, and we all know what kind of client is his own lawyer.

Mr Luskin might be a good lawyer in his day job, but, if so, he simply doesn't bring any actual legal talents he has to bear on the question of evolution.



#57283: — 01/10  at  05:10 PM

Mr Luskin might be a good lawyer in his day job, but, if so, he simply doesn't bring any actual legal talents he has to bear on the question of evolution.


Unfortunately, Luskin was *doing* his day job (believe it or not!) when he wrote that piece.



#57284: John — 01/10  at  05:14 PM
"(1) In most of our experience, individuals with the randomly-fused chromosome can be normal, but it is very likely that their offspring will ultimately have a genetic disease. A classic example of such is a cause of Down syndrome."

I especially like how the apparent actual antecedent of "such" in the second sentence is "a genetic disease" in the first, which makes the second sentence quite true. Yet almost anybody reading it would assume the antecedent was "randomly-fused chromosome."
Sneaky, that.



#57285: Pete — 01/10  at  05:15 PM
There's a great writeup on this subject (as usual) on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_Genome_Project
The part "Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site" is especially relevant here.

There's also a useful picture here: http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/chro.all.html -- showing comparative chromosome banding patterns of 4 ape species: humans, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans.



#57290: — 01/10  at  05:32 PM
Nice job PZ. I'm reminded of a vivid example from many years ago of the fact that chromosomal fusions are not necessarily lethal. I was taking an undergraduate genetics course and we visited a genetic counseling lab in central Maine. The lab director showed us a karyotype from a woman with a chromosomal fusion- I believe 9:13. Her daughter had inherited it from her, and both were phenotypically normal. The karyotype was quite striking and made an impression that I'm still remembering decades later.



#57291: — 01/10  at  05:36 PM
<quote>Miller may have found good empirical evidence for a chromosomal fusion event. But all of our experience with mammalian genetics tells us that such a chromosomal aberration should have resulted in a non-viable mutant, or non-viable offspring. Thus, Neo-Darwinism has a hard time explaining why such a random fusion event was somehow advantageous.</quote>

Presumably, then, Luskin believes in a scenario where an Intelligent Designer created a 48-chromosome pre-human species and then later stapled two of the chromosome pairs together for some reason? And must have pre-arranged the chromosomes to be suitable for such stapling, since (according to Luskin) without such pre-arrangement the new humans would be non-viable?

That's actually pretty intriguing, from a sci-fi perspective. And as we all know from Behe's testimony, that makes it good science!



#57293: — 01/10  at  05:37 PM
"So it's three weeks after the trial, after the nasty "cross-examiners" and "impartial judges" and "witness oaths" have gone home, and only now Mr. Luskin comes up with his rebuttal."

IIRC, Casey had his criticism up somewhere within a day or two of Ken's testimony.

Not that promptness, in this case, helps any.



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